I hope you got your cup of coffee ready for this episode, people because it’s a long one!
Now, don’t let the one-hour length of the podcast intimidate you; it's filled with expert advice and information you won’t get anywhere else. So, this is something you definitely don’t wanna miss!
This week, we have John Coyle on our podcast. He is an expert in digital marketing, and we explored a range of topics—from setting campaign goals to choosing the right platforms to invest in, networking and forming new partnerships, the future of AI, and much more.
Obviously, we can't cover every detail of the podcast in this article (otherwise this will turn into a lengthy article), so make sure to click the link above for the full experience!
Let's start with a little background on John. After beginning his career in digital marketing, running paid ads, he lost his job in 2017.
‘Just a heads up, if your boss texts you on a Thursday night, asking for a Friday 9 am meeting, it’s probably not good.’ John added.
Following this life-changing moment, he started freelancing and quickly built a client base, which led him to establish his own agency. His agency grew to a team of 12-13 people and was acquired by Structured in 2021.
Today, John works at Triple Whale, a company that provides tools to help e-commerce businesses track their performance and make strategic choices.
Now, What Is Triple Whale?
Triple Whale is truly a breakthrough for e-commerce businesses as it connects with Shopify and multiple ad channels to provide a complete view of how the business is performing.
It provides metrics like growth, profit, and customer acquisition costs, helping businesses figure out which ad channels bring in the most money and value.
With the huge amount of data Triple Whale collects, it helps businesses see which strategies work best. Companies can now make better decisions, optimize their ad spending, and get the best return on their investment.
Meta Platform Is Still Dominating The Digital Marketing World
According to John, based on his personal experience, even with new platforms emerging, Facebook and Instagram (owned by Meta) remain the most popular platforms for e-commerce advertising.
About 70% of ad spending in e-commerce goes to these platforms, with Google taking 25%, and TikTok and others making up the last 5%.
For e-commerce brands, having a strong presence on Meta platforms is important, but it's also worth exploring new opportunities.
Focus on Conversions NOT Awareness
Hemant then touched on the topic of setting up campaign goals. The key to successful e-commerce advertising is focusing on conversions – getting customers to buy – rather than just trying to get as many people as possible to see the ads.
John went on to emphasize that the most successful e-commerce campaigns are those that prioritize conversions, making sure that ad spend is directed towards driving tangible results like sales and customer acquisitions.
Hemant then also jumped in and shared stories about auditing clients' campaigns and finding inefficiencies, such as using the wrong ad objectives like traffic or reach instead of conversions. These real-world examples highlight the importance of aligning ad strategies with business goals and using data to drive decisions.
Be Wary of Platform Representatives
John goes on to advise caution when dealing with representatives from Meta and Google. What happens is that the goals of these reps are usually to increase ad spending rather than optimize it for the client's benefit.
Ideally, e-commerce marketers should take their advice with a grain of salt and make sure it aligns with their business goals before making any optimization decisions.
Exploring New Opportunities
New and aspiring brands can explore platforms like TikTok: TikTok’s shop feature and organic growth as current opportunities worth considering.
However, John also warned against getting distracted by every new trend and advised staying focused on what works best for the business. It can be overwhelming to jump on every bandwagon or trend there is out there. Think about the goals of your business and what your audience responds best to and stick to that!
Scaling Challenges in E-commerce
Scaling a brand has its own set of challenges, particularly when growing revenue from $25 million to $50 million.
As brands reach the $25 million revenue mark, traditional paid marketing channels such as Google and Facebook often become less profitable. John spoke about the difficulties in maintaining the same level of profitability while scaling these channels.
Diversification is key at this stage. Brands need to look beyond paid advertising and invest in various marketing channels to ensure continued growth.
Why You Shouldn’t Disregard Non-Paid Channels
Very few are aware of this, but brands need to drive their efforts towards non-paid channels to sustain long-term profitability.
In this conversation, Hemant highlighted the effectiveness of CRM, email, SMS, and affiliate marketing in improving customer engagement and driving sales. John agrees to this, noting that a heavy reliance on paid advertising can be risky.
While paid advertising is great to an extent, brands should focus on creating customer connections through organic outreach and content.
Organic and Social Media Strategies
Speaking of organic outreach, Coyle goes on to suggest that brands can work on boosting their online reach by focusing on organic social content. Hiring content creators or influencers can be an amazing move to improve brand visibility.
Hemant agrees, pointing out the success seen by brands that segment their user base and create personalized marketing strategies. When brands create content, it’s important to accommodate to different customer segments, leading to more engagement.
Attending Live Events and Trade Shows
Both Hemant and John agreed on the value of participating in live events and trade shows. These events offer brands an opportunity to interact directly with customers, gather feedback, and increase brand visibility (also known as networking).
The Future of E-commerce and AI
Looking ahead, Coyle touched on the transformative impact of AI on e-commerce. He envisioned a future where AI could take over purchasing decisions for consumers, selecting products based on their preferences, budget, and behavior.
Now, this could ultimately change how products are sold, offering a more personalized and efficient shopping experience, which would be great for both brands and consumers.
Building Internal Teams for Outreach
Coyle highlighted the importance of building internal teams dedicated to outreach activities. These teams should focus on forming brand partnerships, engaging with micro-influencers, and exploring new retail opportunities.
Such proactive outreach can drive significant growth and open up new revenue streams.
Where To Find John
As we wrap up this episode, if you’d like to connect with John, you can find him on LinkedIn by searching for John Coyle.
On Twitter, you can follow him at @John J.H. Coyle. For video content, check out his YouTube channel, also under the username John J.H. Coyle. No matter your preferred social media platform, you can find him under the handle @John J.H. Coyle.
He also has a podcast under the name of Modern Commerce but he’s currently working on rebranding it!
Connect with Digicom:
We at DigiCom are obsessive data-driven marketers pulling from multi-disciplinary strategies to unlock scale. We buy media across all platforms and placements and provide creative solutions alongside content creation, and conversion rate optimizations. We pride ourselves on your successes and will stop at nothing to help you grow.
Transcript:
Hemant Varshney (00:01.326)
Hey everyone, today I have John Coyle in with me on our podcast. John has a ton of experience in digital. He knows all things attribution. John, welcome to the show.
John Coyle (00:15.947)
Good to be here, man. Thanks for having me.
Hemant Varshney (00:17.698)
Of course, of course. You and I have been working together for quite some time, or at least like myself and your team, your story is absolutely very fascinating. We just had the Walees event a couple of weeks ago and just hearing you speak, I just really needed to have you on as a guest. So thanks for being a part of our podcast.
John Coyle (00:43.411)
100% man, yeah, I've listened to a couple episodes, getting ready to be on, so excited to chop it up. Chat marketing.
Hemant Varshney (00:51.254)
Amazing. Yeah, can you give everybody a little bit about your background?
John Coyle (00:58.311)
Yeah, so pretty good place to start the story, I think, is fall of 2017. I was working at a marketing agency, I was running paid ads for them, and I got a text on Thursday night, got a text from my boss, and asked if I could come in for a 9 a.m. meeting on Friday, which, just a heads up, if you get a text from your boss on a Thursday night, asking for a Friday,
9 a.m. meeting, it's probably not good. Like, I'm just kinda letting everybody know. So, he let me go, they let me go, they fired me. And at the time I had one kid, my wife was in school and she wasn't working and we were pregnant with our second, or she was pregnant with our second. And so it was like pretty scary. There was like a lot of stress right then in that moment and I like kind of.
Gather my stuff, I went out to my car and I just sat there and I couldn't bring myself to call my wife. Instead, I made a couple other calls. Like I just called some people that I knew from going to marketing events or from online communities. And I got like a couple freelancing gigs. Just running ads, you know, running Facebook ads or Google ads or really whatever people needed. Beggars can't be choosers at that point, right? Like, what do you need? I'll do that. Yes, I know how.
And that turned into an agency that I grew to, I think at the most there was 12 or 13 team members. I ended up selling that agency in 2021 to an agency called Structured, the Structured agency. A lot of people know what that is. And then I led the paid media team at Structured and the growth team at Structured. So I've sort of been behind the scenes growing kind of some of the biggest companies on the internet for a lot of years. And then I've also been
in-house as well, like building up, you know, going and working for a brand for six months or 12 months and building up their internal team. No, I work at Triple Whale. So I kind of have this weird like half entrepreneur, like mostly contractor, an entrepreneur path. And then now I have like a W2 and a 401k and insurance and all this stuff. I don't know what any of that is, but I've got it. Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (03:04.523)
That's it.
Hemant Varshney (03:22.255)
Yeah, yeah, that's incredible, man. And like, I, you know, commend you on your journey. I very much understand what that's like. And, you know, I've been on the same path, you know, and growing. So tell us a little bit about Triple Whale. I personally have spoken about it quite a few times in the show. I love using Triple Whale.
just for the audience, I think. The attribution, marrying data, especially to the way we wanna look at data, break even points, understand profitability, all of the metrics that we're breaking down and total business channel planning, Triple Wheel has worked wonders for us. Because of Triple Wheel, there's some clients we've like eight and nine X because of the way the data.
is coming back to us but John what is Triple L?
John Coyle (04:19.983)
Yeah, I mean, the best way that I say it is, you know, I don't know, it's like, you know, Peter Thiel or Benjamin Franklin or something like that. One of those guys that said, what gets tracked gets improved or what gets measured gets improved. And the way that I say it is like, look, you know, you got to measure the important metrics in any business. So you need to measure. It doesn't matter what the important metrics is. It's different for different businesses, right? It might be growth, it might be profit, it might be...
you know, new customer acquisition cost, any of those things. Uh, Triple Whale measures all of that accurately and, and like breaks it down. Right. So if you think about any sports team or any sport, we track all these stats. And the whole point is to try and figure out which players are the most effective. And that's exactly what Triple Whale does is to, right. Like we track the stats on Google, on Facebook, on, you know, every channel to figure out.
which channel is driving the most profit, which channel is driving the highest value customers. You know, if you look at it in the past six months or 12 months or something like that, like basically all the information and all the, you know, every single stat you would possibly need to track for your business is there in Triple Whale. I think that's the best way I can possibly describe it. You know?
Hemant Varshney (05:31.542)
Yeah, yeah, and I think also to just provide, I guess the way I view it, it's like Triple Whale is an attribution software that easily plugs into a Shopify store and into all of your paid ad channels and non-paid ad channels. And you can easily, similar to UTM tracking, you can easily tag all of your links and clicks and Triple Whale will marry the data in the backend
allow you to view attribution, right? How to credit the conversion, whatever the conversion is. And why that's important, like John exactly, kind of like you said, right? It helps you hit goals. Like whatever goals those are, you have a standardized way of looking at attribution versus pulling something from this platform, pulling something from that platform. They have different viewpoints, they have different touch points.
So yeah, I mean, at the event we threw, you were talking quite a bit about trends, right? And you have the purview to aggregate all of this incredible data across all of these incredible industries and ad platforms. What are some trends you're seeing?
John Coyle (06:53.751)
So in e-commerce specifically and shop for Shopify stores, that's the data set that Triple Well is working with. A couple things. So first of all, I think that a lot of, there's a lot of talk about not meta, right? So there's a lot of talk about like, people don't really wanna talk about Facebook ads or Instagram ads or like a lot of people think Facebook is dead as a platform that it just doesn't have any users. That's not what the spend shows. The spend across.
Brands across e-commerce brands is like still 70% on Meta. You know, the e-commerce brands across the board, and this is like multiple billions of dollars in ad spend per quarter that we track, right? So whatever, $10 billion a year in ad spend that we track. So it's a lot, it's a significant amount of data. And 70% of it still is on Facebook and Instagram. About 20% is on Google and...
you know, maybe 10% is on other, it's really actually 25% on Google and like 5% on other channels. And like of that 5%, 4% of it is TikTok. So it's basically still meta is king. I do see brands every now and then, because I get on a lot of calls, you know, in one-on-one calls with brands. I do see brands that are flipped and have Google as their primary biggest spending channel. So it's not like it's impossible, it's not like it never happens.
Hemant Varshney (08:14.413)
Yo.
John Coyle (08:17.759)
But across the board, trend-wise, it's not really slowing down either. It's not like the other channels are eating up meta spend. They aren't. Meta is taking the spend and it's keeping it.
Hemant Varshney (08:31.862)
Yeah, I see that across like our portfolio of clients, right? Where the majority of our spend is Meta. And I think throughout my career, so like throughout my career, right? Like, yes, Google first prior to Meta, that just makes sense. But once Meta kind of got its ad platform up in live, I think their team has done a wonderful job for.
all types of marketers, whether it's performance, direct response or awareness, to build out all of these algorithms that allow you to hyper-target or generally target and figure out the right audience. While I think Meta does a really good job of that, I don't love using any awareness algorithm. I always think that unless you're spending like 20 to $30,000 a day on the ad platform,
It doesn't make sense to go for Reach, even Linklix, like sometimes for me, just because there's so many people for most products that are in market at a given time in a given day that you should be able to target them on Meta. Maybe your CPMs go up a little bit, but just a couple of my thoughts.
John Coyle (09:48.203)
Yeah, I wish I had trends on the campaign objectives that brands are using. I don't, we don't have, I mean, sure, we could maybe aggregate that data, but I don't have that offhand. But I can say anecdotally, like I said, I get on coaching calls with between 25 and 50 brands per week. And it's by and large the conversion objective in e-commerce. So not a lot of e-commerce brands.
Hemant Varshney (10:14.027)
Yup.
John Coyle (10:18.487)
Outside of maybe, outside of like Procter and Gamble, Unilever, those types of companies, not a lot of e-commerce brands using like Reach Objectives or Link Clips, even Video Views. You see it every now and then, but for the most part, they are, they're trying to make their dollars work for them. They're trying to make their dollars actually drive sales. It's not just eyeballs play.
Hemant Varshney (10:38.358)
Yeah. And, you know, I think for like our listeners that are thinking about reach and awareness, like there's so many people in the bottom to mid of like mid of your funnel, right? For most products, not every product, but for most products where they have intent to either get more information or purchase like
you know, it makes sense to leverage a conversion algorithm. The reason why I bring this up very much is because like, I've audited so many clients and we see it happen time to time, right? Where there's like somebody that is managing ad campaigns and trying to drive revenue, but they're using like a traffic algorithm or there's reach in there.
It just causes challenges for the brand. And it's like, oh, that's a layup for us, because it's like, hey, you're not running this correct whatsoever.
John Coyle (11:34.395)
Yeah. I think Meta released a study that if you run reach campaigns alongside your conversion campaigns, it actually improves the performance of your conversion campaigns. I have a lot of skepticism around said study and I have a lot of skepticism around anything that Meta says you should do. Like anytime you talk to a Meta rep, I generally say like, okay, yeah, listen to everything they have to say so you know exactly what not to do.
Hemant Varshney (11:47.998)
Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (11:54.615)
Yep.
Hemant Varshney (12:01.291)
Yes.
John Coyle (12:01.387)
because whatever they tell you, it's probably not what you should do. I've had a few good meta, like, I don't know, probably some meta reps listen to this, definitely some meta reps listen to stuff that Triple Whale does and go to our events and stuff like that. I've had some good meta reps for sure, you know, but yeah, like for the most part, I don't know what the reps are incentivized on, but it doesn't seem to be like aligned with, most of the time what brand owners that we're working with are doing, right? And maybe they're just like,
Hemant Varshney (12:28.17)
Yeah.
John Coyle (12:29.031)
working with so many different kinds of advertisers that wanna do different things. But usually, you know, e-commerce brands are like, I want to run an ad that shows my product as favorably as possible, and I want people to see that ad, and then click, and then purchase the product. And that's where I wanna spend 99%, if not 100% of my ad budget. And I don't know, meta reps don't seem to be incentivized on the same thing.
Hemant Varshney (12:52.546)
They don't and also neither do Google reps. And I have a story actually. This was, I think back in like November, right? So I was out for drinks. I met somebody that worked at Google down in the Chelsea office. And this person was asking me, oh, how do I get like, you know, agencies hate speaking to me? Like, how do I get them to speak to me? It's like, well, do you know the platform? Like...
Do you know how to speak back and understand the pressure that an agency owner or a marketer that's fingers to keyboard running these campaigns, what they're held to, right? I think the biggest disconnect is you're giving us recommendations to increase spend because you need to build your book of business and increase your revenue or spend on your side.
John Coyle (13:35.668)
Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (13:51.422)
Oh my God, I need to learn the software. And it's like, yo, this is AdWords. You're trying to sell me AdWords and you're like, Google doesn't force you to learn how to run these campaigns. You know, and that, that like, I've been, I've been into Google's office is so many times, right? And it's like that single-handedly blew my mind that, you know, this person was there for like a over a year and said, Oh, I need to learn the software. It's AdWords. Like,
John Coyle (13:54.847)
Yeah.
John Coyle (14:02.443)
Yeah.
John Coyle (14:21.415)
Most of your meta or Google reps have never set up or run an ad campaign. And even if they have, it's never been for anything significant, like not for any real stakes, you know what I mean? Like, hey, spend some of your own money, even if it's a small amount, and like try and drive sales to something or try and drive leads to something, something like that. Most of them just have never done that. And they, like there's a disconnect. It becomes monopoly money, dude. Like when, and I have a hard time with this at Triple Whale sometimes, like.
Hemant Varshney (14:36.394)
Yeah.
John Coyle (14:49.767)
we see so much ad spend and we see so much sales and data that it's really hard for it to not just become monopoly money to me. When I say $100 million, it's nothing, right? Or $50 million, it's nothing. Or several billion in ad spend is what comes through our platform, it's nothing. The dollar signs, it's just a bunch, it's numbers with a bunch of zero. Yeah, the commas just keep moving and it's hard for me to remember, that's somebody's...
Hemant Varshney (15:12.738)
I'm gonna skip moving.
John Coyle (15:19.555)
and money, you know what I mean? Like, and that, like that money matters and it needs to make the money back. And like, that's triple whale. Imagine Google or like Facebook, the numbers, the commas, there's even more zeros, right? Like there's even more commas. So it's really hard for it to not just become monopoly money to them for sure, you know.
Hemant Varshney (15:21.623)
Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (15:38.562)
Yeah. You do a lot of one-on-one calls, right? And you're talking to a lot of founders and, you know, kind of just making the case of it's not monopoly money, like our very much like ethos is like, Hey, we're working with founders. A lot of these companies are bootstrapped. I bootstrapped Digicom. I bootstrapped like a couple other businesses and I've been in the position of like, Oh shit, I have to make this work. Like my team relies on me. My family relies on me. There's so many people that.
John Coyle (15:56.157)
We
Hemant Varshney (16:07.126)
Like I need to support. So my investments are very important and go back to that monopoly money perspective, especially when it's like a CSM from an ad platform, they're not thinking about it that way. They're not thinking they're like, it's their book of business and that's it. But yeah, I mean, you know, with.
John Coyle (16:22.915)
The only real money that isn't monopoly money to them is their paycheck and their paycheck is based on getting you to spend more money. It's a very strange incentivization system, right? And that's nobody's fault, right? Show me the incentives and I'll show you, I'll explain people's actions. Very few people don't act in accord, just humans. Very few humans out there don't act in accordance with their own incentives. Like people, if you've ever met somebody who doesn't act in accordance with their own incentives, it's like strange. It's just jarring to be a raven.
Hemant Varshney (16:42.7)
Yeah.
John Coyle (16:53.108)
You can't understand them. You can't predict them. It's like very they're very strange. So yeah, I mean you can't really blame them It's just that's what it is
Hemant Varshney (17:01.338)
Yeah. What about, yeah, I guess just jumping into some of the one-on-one calls. What are a couple insights that can help founders and marketers and brand owners from what you're hearing?
John Coyle (17:19.379)
Dude, so what I have been noticing and having really large data sets is nice because I remember when I sold my agency to a bigger agency and I remember thinking, oh, now I'm like really gonna know what works. Cause it's not like I didn't know what worked with my agency, but like, you're working off of a data set of, yeah, I've done this for five clients or 10 clients or 15 clients or whatever. And,
you know, now I'm gonna sell to this large agency and they've done it for 50 clients. So now I'm like really gonna know it works. And the biggest thing that I found and the way that I found that like trends or like observations around this industry go is that like when you have almost no data, you basically say, here's like one thing that worked one time and you get very confident in that thing, cause you're like, I don't know, it fricking worked. So like I have a sample size of one, like great, like it worked, you know.
Hemant Varshney (18:13.579)
Yeah.
Yeah.
John Coyle (18:18.315)
And then you post it on Twitter and LinkedIn and all of the places. And then as you grow a little bit larger sample size of like 50, that's when you start to realize like, man, there's like no commonalities here. Like very few things are the same across two or three or four or five different brands, or maybe it's like three, but it's like three of 50. You know, so that's when you get a little unconfident and you're like, I don't even know what to post because what does like...
Back when I had less data, I was more confident. And then there's this other side of the curve, and this is what I like about being at Triple Well, where it's like, but then you get a data set of like thousands and you realize that there are trends again. So it's really cool getting on as many one-on-one calls with founders and like marketing leaders, heads of marketing, you know, the growth things like that, because basically like my observation is that brands right now,
and this is probably all businesses, but specifically e-commerce brands right now, I think are in like one of maybe three buckets, maybe two buckets, one of three buckets I wanna say. So bucket one would be like the zero to one bucket, right? So that's just like trying to launch, trying to get off the ground. And for them, almost always like the best thing you can have is shiny object syndrome, which most people tell you not to have shiny object syndrome, and I'm like, caveat.
Don't have shiny object syndrome unless you got nothing going. If you got nothing going, shiny object away, dude. Like one of those shiny objects is gonna be the thing. So like when people ask me about TikTok shop, I'm like, do you do less than $15,000 in revenue per month or less than $10,000 in revenue per month? Then yeah, TikTok shop, that's for you, right? Like you should chase that with like vigor because.
Hemant Varshney (20:08.476)
Yeah.
John Coyle (20:09.107)
That's a, you're basically looking for like arbitrage opportunity. So we look a lot of, a lot of the brands that have been built, they were built on some kind of wave, right? There was like this big D to C wave where, you know, Casper and Harry's and like, it was this crazy thing that you could buy a mattress on the internet or a razor on the internet. Like, Oh, I don't have to pay the store anymore. Like the store had some big, big bad middle man that was like, the internet razors are just as expensive, dude. But like in our, in our brains.
Hemant Varshney (20:12.694)
Yup, yup, yup.
Hemant Varshney (20:17.654)
Yeah.
John Coyle (20:37.991)
We're like, yeah, now I'm getting a better razor. I don't know, it's not really a better razor, but it's just like, there was this big wave of that. And then there was this big wave where like, Facebook ads were like really worked. Like there were just this incredible arbitrage opportunity where you could put in a dollar and get out three, and you didn't really even have to be selling that great of a product to do that, you know? Like you could be selling fricking knickknacks off of Alibaba, right? Blue suede shoes off Alibaba and flip them, you know.
you buy them for 10 bucks, you pay two bucks for advertising and you sell them for 20 bucks, and you could do that over and over again. And a lot of brands were built on that. And that was the arbitrage opportunity at the time. And that was like, all the people who chased that shiny object built a business, right? And then there was influencer marketing was kind of a similar thing. Now influencers, maybe a little bit overpriced. I think it's good in some places. I think it's really good on YouTube. We could circle back to that if you want. But now it's TikTok. It's TikTok
Right? So if you're like zero to one and you don't really have anything going, like the brands that I see like blowing up and emerging from zero right now are doing it on TikTok shop. They're not doing it with Facebook ads or they're creator led. So it's some creator launching.
Hemant Varshney (21:46.893)
Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (21:51.178)
Yeah, I think I've worked with a couple of creative creator led brains, right? Like I'm saying, some of these creators have had 500,000 like followers, a million followers, like they're, you know, the amount of velocity and veracity of traffic they can generate is
It's like you said, it's like they focused all their time in building this giant following. And now I'm launching a brand and it's like, one, we've done like $40,000 of sales on day two. It's like, you know, maybe it's like $38,000 and it's like until it finally normalizes, but like, even at that normal, they're running at like $20,000 a day.
John Coyle (22:34.383)
Yeah, yeah. That's if the creator doesn't lose half the time, the creator loses interest. And they're like, I already talked about that thing. I don't want to talk about that anymore. You got to figure it out after that. But like, but I literally mean, like, even if it's not creator led, like, just like being tick tock shop heavy, going live on tick tock, like even really build something from nothing on tick tock organically, right now, this like two day, I don't know if that will be the case in one month even, you know what I mean? And maybe tick tock will be banned. Who knows, but
Hemant Varshney (22:39.635)
Yeah, yeah.
Hemant Varshney (22:47.394)
You know.
Hemant Varshney (22:52.49)
Yup.
Hemant Varshney (22:57.932)
Yeah.
John Coyle (23:03.339)
So the zero to one, that's kind of where I say like, yeah, chase all the shiny objects you want in that phase. You're really looking for that breakthrough opportunity or that arbitrage opportunity where you're just flipping cash, you know what I mean? And so then there's this bridge phase. So the next bucket is this sort of bridge bucket where a company figured out that arbitrage opportunity and then they're like, well, now what? And...
I think this is probably one of the most common buckets that other than the zero to one bucket, most brands will die in the zero to one bucket. They'll never find the arbitrage opportunity, but assuming it gets off the ground, this bridge bucket is like kind of one of the most dangerous places. I've seen actually a lot of brands do a million or $2 million in revenue or $3 million or $5 million in revenue during the pandemic. And like, they're not even around anymore with those brands. So like that, I think that's like the hardest phase is like,
figuring out like where you are. And really that I found comes down to one thing. Either you have a product that is good enough that people just wanna buy it over and over again, right? So people come back and they buy more products from you or they buy your product over again, you know, it's refillable or they just buy more stuff from you. They don't buy just one time. Or you crack distribution and you get into retail and Amazon and you're kind of like omni-channel. So.
Hemant Varshney (24:20.715)
Yeah.
John Coyle (24:28.711)
Cross net is a great example of this. I always use them as an example because people love cross net. It's four square volleyball if you've never heard of cross net. Once you buy a cross net, you don't really need another cross net. That's all the, you've got 100% of the cross nets you need for life. And so for them, that's a brand or that's a product that you're never really going to have a big lifetime value on that. People aren't going to come back and buy more.
Hemant Varshney (24:43.819)
Yup, yup, yup.
John Coyle (24:55.927)
So you just need to get distribution. You need to be in Target, you need to be in Dick's Sporting Goods, you need to be on Amazon, you just need to be everywhere. And then it's just gonna end up normalizing, right? It's gonna end up like leveling out and there's gonna be a level it sells at. And you can push the trend as much as possible, but it's gonna trend really hard and then it's gonna flatten. And then best case scenario, it like flattens and it's like a pretty good trend. Cornhole is probably about the best case scenario there, right, like in a brand like that, where it's like.
Hemant Varshney (24:58.698)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Coyle (25:24.623)
super trend and then now it's flattened at a level that like there's professional cornhole, like it's a thing, right? And so it's one of those two things that gets you in that bridge. And if you never cross that, if you're just staying in the direct to consumer, you don't actually have like a long-term business, you just have like a cash grab, right? So if you're just running ads and you're making money running ads and you never really crack distribution and people don't come back and buy from you a second time, then you're just like, that's what the business is, right?
Hemant Varshney (25:28.93)
Yes.
Hemant Varshney (25:53.185)
Yeah.
John Coyle (25:53.907)
You're just doing a cash grab for as long as you can. Or you're gonna end up in some kind of stasis. So I see this with like accessory brands. So maybe you sell luggage, right? You're gonna end up doing whatever you can do with like Google ads, Google shopping ads or performance max ads and like some Facebook catalog ads. And that's pretty much what you can do, right? Like you're not really gonna be able to scale because people aren't gonna buy from you second time and you're not distributing. So that's kind of like the middle phase and then.
Then there's the higher phase of brands where people come back and buy from them a lot and they are really omnichannel distribution and they're really kind of going global with it. They're doing a lot of, you know, big creator integrations or maybe celebrity integrations and things like that. And their biggest problem is like the same problem businesses have had for like centuries. And I know that Triple Well is supposed to solve this problem and it does to a degree. But like at a certain point, once you get past the point of like
Hemant Varshney (26:36.14)
Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (26:47.342)
Howdy.
John Coyle (26:50.555)
somebody's gonna see this product today and buy it today, then you get into like, where are the sales, what's working? Even as much data as we have today, once you get to that size, it's very hard to know, like you're probably wasting 20 or 30% of your budget, you really are, even if you're very efficient with your budget, that's the biggest issue they tend to have. And then they have like, also these teams that are like, they get like this really, they're not like founder mentality anymore, they're very like.
Hemant Varshney (26:57.579)
Yup.
John Coyle (27:18.087)
I don't know, I wanna keep my job so I don't really wanna do anything too risky and stuff like that.
Hemant Varshney (27:22.634)
Yeah, I think, wow, thank you for sharing all of that.
John Coyle (27:26.687)
That was a lot. I just unloaded all the buckets.
Hemant Varshney (27:29.834)
Yeah, I think that is pretty incredible. I hear you 100% from going zero to one and riding the wave, right? And I think that's where, hey, if you actually are passionate about the product and the brand you're trying to build and you're passionate about being an entrepreneur, you get into stage two. And you're trying to bridge in, and yeah, I mean, depending on your product,
going into wholesale and retail becomes very important. And I just went to Expo West a couple of months ago and I was speaking to so many brand founders and they were just like, hey, listen, we're in this place. Yes, we're running some form of digital, but we want to get into full-blown wholesale because it's going to transform everything we're doing. And then, yeah, I guess working for multinational, like Fortune 100.
You know, I very much understand the, hey, what is actually working? So yeah, I think, I think that's a pretty incredible way to break it down.
John Coyle (28:37.075)
I think even at like 25, 30 million dollars, it can get pretty hard to really know what, because it's like, you can't really scale Google anymore usually once you've gotten that, or it's just incremental, right? Like if you're scaling Google, it's on less, not less profitable, you're doing YouTube, or you're doing display where it's not like instant profit. And same with Facebook, you've sort of scaled past the zone of like, it's instant profit, and you're now like into the zone of
the advertising, a lot of your top of funnel advertising you're doing is true top of funnel and it's less profitable. And that's where it gets hard to say like, which top of funnel such stuff is driving like which bottom of funnel stuff, right? And you can do that to a degree, but like I think that's where brands at that level, 25 to 50 million sort of get frustrated, is they're like used to this like every ad dollar has to be accountable mentality.
Hemant Varshney (29:18.263)
Yeah.
John Coyle (29:31.747)
And then now they're like, well, what about all these ones? Like, let's just cut all this stuff that's not profitable. It's like, you can't do that. You're just gonna stunt your growth. And then I would also say that I don't think every brand has to distribute into retail. And I don't think every brand has to be omni-channel. But if you're not going to be, then people have to come back and buy from you again, if you wanna grow.
Hemant Varshney (29:36.938)
Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (29:49.074)
Yeah, yeah. We were talking a little bit about, and I think you kind of touched on some of this, but we don't do marketing well in e-comm, right? And we're very much heavy in paid, and of course, we're a growth agency. We focus on paid. And I think time and time again, I had a conversation with a client today, smaller client. They are in the fitness space, incredible product.
John Coyle (29:59.445)
Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (30:18.45)
engineers and we're running paid and we kicked off with them a couple weeks ago. We take over the accounts tomorrow on May 1st. And so we're going through all of the channel plans. We're like, hey, paid has led everything, but we need to build these other channels. They're just equally as important. We need people in CRM, right? Like your email SMS, we need to ensure we're building on affiliate. Like we need to ensure that, hey, as we're scaling budgets,
being profitable, but these other non-paid channels are so crucial for profitability and long-term growth. And so we're always talking about it. What are your thoughts around that?
John Coyle (31:01.931)
What do you do about it? Yeah, and so this is the thing, and this is more of a conversation that I'd wanna have, but here's what I've noticed is, let me just start from a place of like, let's just do some very easy math here, all right? Let's say a customer is worth, over a six month period, they're worth $100 worth of profit to you, right? Let's say 80 of that $100,
Hemant Varshney (31:07.199)
Yeah.
John Coyle (31:31.483)
is happens on their first day of being a customer. Or 50, let's actually say 50 of that $100 happens on their first day of being a customer. And then over the next six months, there's another $50 of profit. So when you get a customer, they're worth, on average, $50 of profit day one, or day zero is what that's actually called. And then another $50 over the next six months, okay? What happens when your new customer acquisition cost, the cost that...
how much it costs you to get a new customer using paid channels like Google and Facebook goes over $100. Like now we're waiting more than six months to make a profit. What if it goes to 150? What if it goes to 200, right? Like we get in these situations and pay, and I'll tell you exactly what happens. What happens is this sort of like slow burn, right? Because if a brand's grown enough, they'll continue to do revenue from their past customers.
Hemant Varshney (32:09.29)
You lose my-
Yep.
John Coyle (32:28.531)
while their new, like they won't even realize their house is on fire until they can't fix it. Like until it's already almost burnt down because they've been acquiring customers for two, and they've been acquiring less and less and less and less and less customers every month. And now after six or eight or 10 months of doing that, now there's no way for them to make the revenue that they need to make. That's exactly what happens. And
It's like, we just don't, and what I say when I mean like, or what I mean when I say like, I feel like in e-commerce we're like not great at like all around marketing is that basically we just say like we pay for ads on Google and Meta and that's it. And like, if it's not happening, like if that happens, we have no recourse other than to try and just make ads work better. But a lot of times we don't have control over whether ads are going to work better. Like we have like 20% control and 80% of it is just,
platforms or macro trends, right? Like macro economy can have way more to do with whether people are buying from you than, than your own skill as an advertiser. And we don't have any like fallback that is like, can you just hustle? Like what, what about just like working suit? Like you can't work, you can only work so hard at making your ads work, right? Like you can't go in there and just try and make your ads work for eight hours a day, cause stuff takes time. You have to test it. Like you have to make more creatives, whatever, right? Like you can work hard at it, but like a lot of it is like.
Hemant Varshney (33:31.116)
Yep.
John Coyle (33:54.535)
like test, wait, test, wait. And I just think that like most businesses that are like really successful and long, have a like long-term and longevity, have an element of like, if you just hustle super hard, then you can make things happen, right? So there's some element of like, if you're talking about physical product brands, there's some element of direct sales where it's like, if you just hustle super hard and hit up all the retailers and hit up every rep you have and every retailer you're in and stuff, like you can make stuff happen. If you go to,
put feet in the door at every retailer and figure out how can we move this product faster so that this retailer will order more. Like you can make, there's a hustle element where like hustle and like just put effort, human effort into it. Like you can actually make something happen. And in e-commerce, a lot of e-commerce doesn't have that. There's like not this human effort element. It's just like whether ads are working or not. And that's kind of what I mean when I say like, I feel like we are missing parts of marketing that are like, there's no outreach. There's no like...
you know, getting better at social or like, you know, if you think about creators, a lot of times creators are like, upload another video, upload another video, keep uploading a video until you figure it out and you crack it and you get more views. Right. We don't even do that in e-commerce. We don't even like think about like organic social that much or YouTube, any of that stuff. Uh, so that's kind of where I'm coming from with that is that, and I have suggestions to brands of ways they can do that, but I kind of want to kick that back to you and get your thoughts.
Hemant Varshney (35:07.767)
Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (35:17.706)
Yeah, so what we do is when we're doing these channel plans, we're like, hey, this client using arbitrary numbers here, last month you had 50 conversions on email. Our budgets this month are increasing by, let's just say we're going from 10,000 to 15,000. So we're increasing budgets. And we're going to get site traffic up.
We have a pop-up that's deploying. We have, you know, like, if all things stay equal in the funnel metrics, right? Like click through rate same, CPM same, which it never is, but let's just say everything is equal. We should get more people into our sequences, into our abandoned carts, into like, and the conversation I have is your 50, like if let's just say, you know, we have a target of,
100 paid conversions going to 150 paid conversions, just easy math, right? Your target of 50 email conversions needs to increase to like 65, 70. Maybe it's not gonna grow at the same rate paid is, but it needs to continue growing. And what we're doing is for those offline channels, right? Like organic social or email or SMS.
As we're scaling a business, we're talking about, hey, these are your new goals for your offline channels. And if we aren't meeting them, let's dissect why. And sometimes it's like, oh, well, last month we launched four campaigns and this month we only have one campaign schedule. And it's like, why do we have one campaign schedule? Like, if, you know, it's a, it's a all in, all in like macro level effort across all of your channels for us to like.
go out and continue hitting the growth metrics, right? And like something else can be, okay, last month, we worked with like these two content creators that posted and we saw like 50 or 75 conversions come from them. Okay, what is the return on that? Is it profitable? Like how much did we spend? A hundred bucks, 200 bucks to create these content pieces. So it's like, why don't we rinse and repeat? Because it's clearly a profitable,
Hemant Varshney (37:39.594)
know, profitable channel for you. And so something we spend a lot of time on is yes, all of the stuff we're doing in paid, but it's like, hey, client X, your non-paid channel should be growing as well. It's very important for your business. It's important to understand your MBR. It helps with total business ROAS. And if people are in your ecosystem, right, like voluntarily giving you their information and they become in your ecosystem, now you just have a lot more data that you can
you can leverage to segment and target and talk to your consumers. I think the guys at Obvi do this really well with the way they're segmenting their user base, right? Like they are asking questions and sending emails and tracking people based on what they clicked and how they're behaving and then serving their product and then changing their messaging. I think it's absolutely brilliant what these guys are doing. And I think that...
in terms of we need to do a better job at e-comm marketing, it's like grassroots, go out, talk, pitch. That doesn't exist like it might in retail, but there are other ways to do it, and there are other digital touch points that need to continue to be groomed and grown.
John Coyle (38:51.624)
Yeah.
John Coyle (38:58.115)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's like, I see it a couple of ways. I think e-commerce brands, I look at it like this. I look at it like, okay, we need some forms of outreach that we can do, and then we need some forms of like organic content creation and organic visibility that we can do, right? So outreach or, sorry, organic visibility. I think a lot of times the lowest hanging fruit for most e-commerce brands for that is probably doing more.
like live events, trade shows, things like that. Like most e-commerce brands should be at some trade show of some kind. You know, like there is a trade show that makes sense for them to be out. Whether it's outdoor retailer, or whether it's like, you know, these like vintage market things in different cities, or whether it's, you know, like SuperWest, whatever it is. Yeah, and I'm not even talking about like industry trade shows where they can learn stuff. I'm talking about like literal places, like freaking go to Coachella. Like...
Hemant Varshney (39:45.714)
XOS, CES, Magic. Yeah, there's so many, yeah.
John Coyle (39:56.319)
like, Diffi or South by Southwest. Diffi where one of the ways that they took off was that they were at Coachella every year, right? And Burning Man every year, like they were there. So I think a lot of econ brands, like, that's probably like the lowest hanging fruit and you're actually gonna do sales when you do that, right? And there's something, like, if you don't think there's anything, you're wrong. There's something, right? And so that's like probably one, like from an organic standpoint, that really is just like low hanging fruit. Every, every econ brand should be doing that.
and they should be trying to increase the portion of their revenue that's coming from like live events. And then another I think is like, yeah, just like most, a lot of the brands that I'm seeing be successful right now are putting an emphasis on organic social and they're doing it in one of two ways. Either they're hiring people to come into their brand and this works really well if you have physical locations and people actually like work at a location.
They're hiring people to come in and they're like, those people that they're hiring are maybe low level content creators already, right? They got 50,000 on TikTok or something like that. They're not really making that much money as a content creator, but you can hire them for your brand. And if they vibe with the brand, they're gonna come in and they're probably gonna make better organic social content for your brand than you were doing before. Before you were just posting basically a mood board on your Instagram. That's not doing anything for anyone, right? Like, so like, they're gonna do a better job of making organic content that actually
Hemant Varshney (41:12.733)
Yeah.
John Coyle (41:20.639)
gets views and like views are the top of the funnel, right? Maybe not all those views translate, but a lot of them do. And there's a lot of industries where like, there's tons of content formats that make sense, right? If you're a makeup brand, like, you should have a few people in your company that are just hired social media managers that are doing get ready with me's, you know? Or if you're like any kind of food brand, there should be people doing recipes, right? So yeah, I think hiring some people to actually just like come in and not be afraid to be on camera.
for organic social is pretty huge. I think you can also do some collaborations. So if you look at true classic teas, they do this a lot where they'll partner with four or five different people on Instagram who will like make organic posts that end up being collab posts, right? So like pretty easy to step up your organic social game in e-commerce because most organic social really sucks. Another one that works really well if you can pull this off is Marcus Milioni fermented.
does this, Nick Baer for Baer Fitness does this where it's like very founder led content, where the branded page is almost more of like a founder page. That's really cool as well, but your founder actually has to kind of like live the brand. So yeah, I think that most could do better organic. And then outreach, I think like, it's a couple of things. It's retailers, brand partnerships, like brand to brand partnerships, you know.
You're not a competitor to us, but you have people who might be our customers, uh, and content creators or influencers, not big ones, micro influencers, right? Uh, that you can just seed product to send them product, let them post, right? You can end up using some of that stuff in ads too. That's great. But like, just you, you want to just be like connecting with people who have audience, right? So there should be outreach around that, whether that's retail, retailers or
Hemant Varshney (43:08.621)
Yep.
John Coyle (43:13.995)
People who could host other brands that could wholesale your stuff on their site, drop shift their stuff, or do a list swap with you, you send their thing, they send your thing, or influencers. Like, I think that, like brands just aren't building that internally, and it's not hard to build that. Like, a few internal team members, that's job is just to hustle, you know?
Hemant Varshney (43:31.37)
Yeah, yeah, I love that and 1000% agree. Also, I think the other thing is with just going to trade shows is, you know, when you're talking to people, you learn things about what they love about your product and like maybe what they don't like or like problems, you know, or it's something that could be a bad review, but you got the chance to explain it. So it's like, Oh, maybe you can lead with, Hey, this is what it solves for. This is how it does. It's going to take you two weeks to see results. Like.
John Coyle (43:45.066)
Yes.
Hemant Varshney (44:00.718)
It's not going to happen instantaneous, right? Like there's just, there's so much out there to go learn from the, like the folks you're literally selling too. Right. So yeah.
John Coyle (44:11.335)
Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that like, and just generally in e-commerce, we can be a lot better. Like we just tend to try and like, we think of everything very, like a lot of brands think of everything very binarily. Like it's like, what is this? Whatever we do, it has to do with the product. And it's like, yeah, like that's fine. But guess what? Like the people who are buying your product, they're into more stuff than just like your fricking phone cases. You know what I mean? Like, or whatever it is you're selling. Like they have like a whole life of interests.
Hemant Varshney (44:38.824)
Yeah.
John Coyle (44:40.043)
and hobbies and problems and things like that outside of that. So I think it's really more about figuring out who those people are that are buying that, like what are some of the common stuff that they're interested, like Liquid Death does a great job of this and they're the brand everybody holds up, but it's just like, who's our tam? Anyone who drinks water, all right, let's just make funny stuff because everybody likes funny stuff, right? Not every brand has a tam of every person, but like.
So you don't have to make funny stuff, but it's just like, they have other interests besides water, right? Like most of them aren't even that interested in water. It's like an afterthought. And that's the same thing with your brand and your product. They're not even that interested in the thing. Like it's just like one little part of their life. So the more you can like actually do marketing that like creates content and experiences and all this stuff that's like part of their, a lot of parts of their life, like the better off you're gonna be.
Hemant Varshney (45:13.666)
Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (45:34.762)
Yeah, uh, all right. I got, uh, I got one more question for you and this is this my favorite one. What is one question you wish I asked you and how would you answer?
John Coyle (45:42.218)
Yeah.
John Coyle (45:49.211)
Yeah, something I've been thinking about lately is the future of e-commerce and artificial intelligence. And everybody's buzz-wording AI right now. And it must suck to be Allen Iverson.
Hemant Varshney (46:05.876)
HAHAHAHA
Hemant Varshney (46:09.491)
That was good, that was good.
John Coyle (46:10.376)
I think I did finally see an ad featuring Allen Iverson talking about AI. Yeah, an AI ad featuring Allen Iverson, which I'm like, yeah, that's been a miss for a minute. But a lot of people kind of like buzz wording AI right now. And so, but if somebody were to ask me like, if AI makes a huge impact on sales of physical products, specifically most of the physical products we're dealing with are like,
Hemant Varshney (46:15.115)
Like an actual AI ad, that's amazing. Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (46:21.334)
Thanks.
John Coyle (46:38.639)
nice to haves, not need to haves. Like, you know, most of the brands that are selling on Shopify, they're not selling like bread, you know, or like if they're selling bread, they're selling like better for you bread. It's not like, you know, here's the bread and eggs and milk you need to survive, right? So it's not like survival stuff. So if I were to make a guess at like what AI is gonna do to that kind of stuff or like the most extreme possible outcome AI could do to like physical product sales, I think that
Hemant Varshney (46:50.826)
Yeah, yeah.
John Coyle (47:08.147)
There's a world where, I'm sure people have seen these videos of like the AI robot that can like do things, you know, like can give you an apple and all that crap. There's a world where those become like as affordable as a car, you know, and you're paying like a monthly car payment to have an AI robot in your house that like does the dishes and does the laundry and stuff like that, which would be amazing. I would love that. There's also a world where maybe not that robot, but either that robot or like a similar one, like
takes, does a lot of your decision making for you, right? So, and I don't mean in a way that like, you can't make your own decisions, but like, you know, like, let's say what I want is, hey, I wanna lose about 15 pounds. I wanna be a little bit healthier. I need to follow through on this. Like all this stuff that I, as a human, like I only have so much brain space to like make decisions and keep track of in my head. Like a lot of that really can be offloaded. So if you think about it, like, you know, if I need a new bag, I need a new bag.
Hemant Varshney (47:56.555)
Yo.
John Coyle (48:08.647)
my AI robot slash AI assistant might know that before I know that, right? Like they might, it's time for a new bag. And they might be able to say, based on John's preferences, budget, financial goals, needs, what he needs the bag for, and like general like vibe and things that he likes and brands that he likes and creators he likes and all that stuff, taking all of that into account because the AI is gonna know me.
Hemant Varshney (48:13.98)
Yeah.
John Coyle (48:37.227)
probably better than I know myself, taking all that into the account, AI might just like buy the bag that I need, based on my budget and needs at any given time. And so if you're thinking about that from a brand side, then you will sell the exact amount of product that is like logical for you to sell, right? In that environment. And it's not all logic, right? Like the AI is not gonna buy, the AI buys me a grocery list and it's like, here's your healthy grocery list. And then I don't eat any of it,
Hemant Varshney (48:44.29)
Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (48:56.022)
Yes.
John Coyle (49:06.047)
I don't want any of that. And I start door dashing McDonald's. AI is gonna learn from that and be like, hey, need to leave some room for McDonald's. Or I need to buy less healthy food. Like how do we, how we dial it back from like 10 to like seven. So he actually eats all the crap, right? So it is gonna take into account your preferences. I think in an ideal world, right? In this, in this sort of world that I'm making up in my head, it would take into account your preferences and like your vibe, right? It's not gonna just only buy the most logical bag based on your budget and your needs. Like it's gonna take.
and count your preferences as well. So like there's still room for that. But if you think about it, like it's gonna know every single bag out there and pick like the best one for the person. So marketing might go from being this thing where we like are trying to do positioning and we're trying to really leverage human psychology of like, you know, here's why you need this now and stuff like that. And like kind of making, getting people to make these emotional decisions and back them up with logic to like literally just trying to make our product the most applicable product to as many people as possible.
Hemant Varshney (49:44.201)
Yeah.
John Coyle (50:04.486)
and that might just become what e-commerce marketing is.
Hemant Varshney (50:07.97)
Okay, I think that is absolutely an incredible spin and like an answer. You know, like what I was thinking about is like you're talking about this AI robot, right? It's like, isn't that...
John Coyle (50:20.919)
Yeah. I want mine to be called Alan Iverson, and I want him to look like Alan Iverson. This is an ode. It's a call out.
Hemant Varshney (50:24.458)
Yeah. But like, so like, you know, so Allen Iverson, right? Isn't that essentially what Meta has been trying to do, but has gotten slapped so many times in like the hand? But like, we're still using, like for me, I'm just like, hey, take all my data and just give me stuff that is relevant. I don't want to make 900 decisions on purchasing because I just.
John Coyle (50:32.383)
Hehehe
Hemant Varshney (50:53.218)
you know, okay, this makes sense. Let me buy it. I'm moving on. I have a lot of important stuff to take care of where I need your actual brain power to think through. Right? So like, and no, sorry, go on.
John Coyle (51:05.704)
Also what you see a lot of working right now in e-commerce is Google Performance Max, Metacatalog ads, which are just very much, they're almost already what I just said. It's just making all the products that you have and matching them with the people that are right for that. I'm adding an extra layer of artificial intelligence that's able to make those decisions
Hemant Varshney (51:10.698)
Yes. Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (51:16.811)
Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (51:22.646)
Yup.
Hemant Varshney (51:27.671)
That's just fine, dude.
John Coyle (51:31.435)
proactively for a person based on every possible, like every possible bag, right? Or every possible thing, not just what that person sees in their feed, right? So yeah, this isn't that far-fetched, right? I'm just adding an extra layer to it, I think, yeah.
Hemant Varshney (51:38.314)
Yeah.
Hemant Varshney (51:45.858)
Yeah, yeah, that's incredible. Well, thank you so much for imparting your wisdom. It's been great having you on our show. Where can our listeners find you?
John Coyle (52:00.055)
So I have a podcast, it is currently called Modern Commerce. I am thinking about rebranding it, so there's that. Probably the best way to like kind of just go down the rabbit hole if you want is just either find me on LinkedIn, John Coyle or on Twitter at John J.H. Coyle or on YouTube at John J.H. Coyle. I'm pretty much at John J.H. Coyle on all the social and stuff. Wherever social you like, at John J.H. Coyle and that's me. And then you can follow the link in bios if you want to do the podcast or the newsletter or whatever, all the things.
Hemant Varshney (52:30.498)
amazing. Thanks for jumping on.
John Coyle (52:32.683)
Thank you.
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